Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure, from
souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid, from
solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure, from
souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid, from
solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
I have been brazing and soldering for some sixty years and have never heard
it called soddering in either the RAF or in teaching.
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure,
from souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid,
from solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
In Scottish English, quite likely. Soldier is pronounced sodjer.
m.
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure, from
souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid, from
solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
There's very little evidence of how anything at all was pronounced
before the early 20th century, when dictionaries started including
pronunciations.
The 1936 Merriam-Webster only shows one pronunciation, sod-er.
The 1913 Webster, which is on line, refers to two spelling variants,
sawder and soder, which I would say indicate pronunciation.
The 1828 Noah Webster, also on line, has this note:
SOD'ER, v.t. [It has been taken for granted that
this is a contracted word, from L. solido, and hence
written solder. The fact may be doubted; but if
true, the settled pronunciation seems to render it
expedient to let the contracted orthography remain
undisturbed.]
[snip definitions]
Under Solder, it says basically to see Soder.
So, there's no evidence there that Americans ever said anything else.
Noah indicated (above) that putting the "l" in the spelling may be a
mistake.
You know we don't have expressions like "sod off," so there's no
conflict. You might look for when those became popular to understand the
British pronunciation. Let's see, Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says
that "sod" as a noun and verb, short for "sodomite" and "sodomize," are
from the mid-19th century. Long after the Great Divide. "Sod all" and
"sod off" are 20th century.
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure, from
souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid, from
solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
I can't say that it was ever pronounced "solder" in the US, but I was a US
Navy trained solderer, and went to Navy school with sailors from all over
the US and it was always pronounced "sodder". I have yet to hear anyone
pronounce it "solder", even by people who do not know how to solder.
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
MC <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> writes:
Quote:
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE,
Yes, and also with a long o but no l (which is what the OED gives as
the secondary British pronunciation).
Quote:
or as "solder" in AmE?
Not that I have heard.
The switchover to pronouncing the l or lengthening the o in Britain
seems to have happened within the 20th century. Fowler, in the
original MEU (1927), says
The only pronunciation I have ever heard, except from the
half-educated to whom spelling is a final court of appeal, is [the
"sodder" one], which is accordingly here recommended; but the OED
gives it only as favoured by American dictionaries....
In 1958, when I was about to go to Britain, an American who had spent
some time there warned me against using the American pronunciation,
which he said would be heard as containing the slang word "sod" =
sodomite. Perhaps, indeed, the two British pronunciations both got
their start as escapes from vulgarity.
--
--- Joe Fineman jcf@TheWorld.com
||: A potato without pepper is like a kiss without a moustache. |
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:36:19 GMT, the renowned Bill Schnakenberg
<willshak@frontiernet.net> wrote:
Quote:
I can't say that it was ever pronounced "solder" in the US, but I was a US
Navy trained solderer, and went to Navy school with sailors from all over
the US and it was always pronounced "sodder". I have yet to hear anyone
pronounce it "solder", even by people who do not know how to solder.
I pronounce it "solder" (Toronto). "Sodder" sounds like something a
plumber would say.
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:36:19 GMT, the renowned Bill Schnakenberg
willshak@frontiernet.net> wrote:
I can't say that it was ever pronounced "solder" in the US, but I was a US
Navy trained solderer, and went to Navy school with sailors from all over
the US and it was always pronounced "sodder". I have yet to hear anyone
pronounce it "solder", even by people who do not know how to solder.
I pronounce it "solder" (Toronto). "Sodder" sounds like something a
plumber would say.
Yeah, that makes sense. A plumber would always mispronounce something he
uses every day.
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure, from
souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid, from
solidus, solid. See solid.
+++
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
There's very little evidence of how anything at all was pronounced
before the early 20th century, when dictionaries started including
pronunciations.
The 1936 Merriam-Webster only shows one pronunciation, sod-er.
The 1913 Webster, which is on line, refers to two spelling variants,
sawder and soder, which I would say indicate pronunciation.
The 1828 Noah Webster, also on line, has this note:
SOD'ER, v.t. [It has been taken for granted that
this is a contracted word, from L. solido, and hence
written solder. The fact may be doubted; but if
true, the settled pronunciation seems to render it
expedient to let the contracted orthography remain
undisturbed.]
[snip definitions]
Under Solder, it says basically to see Soder.
So, there's no evidence there that Americans ever said anything else.
Noah indicated (above) that putting the "l" in the spelling may be a
mistake.
*The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895 at
www.century-dictionary.com , gives two pronunciations each for "solder,"
"solderer," and "soldering," with the pronunciation without /l/ given first
and the pronunciation with /l/ given second. Then the editors appear to have
tired of giving two pronunciations , because "soldering" is followed by
nine separate entries for compound words beginning with "soldering" which
show only the /l/-less pronunciation. These are followed by an entry for
"solder-machine" which also shows only an /l/-less pronunciation.
As for dictionaries not showing pronunciation before the 20th century--and
ignoring the Century, which was published shortly before the turn of the
century--the 1828 dictionary by Noah Webster did indeed indicate
pronunciation. I have seen a facsimile edition, and Webster used diacritics
in the entry word to show its pronunciation. That is how I knew that Noah
Webster gave the entry "ant" (now spelled "ain't") the pronunciation /eInt/.
Quote:
You know we don't have expressions like "sod off," so there's no
conflict. You might look for when those became popular to understand the
British pronunciation. Let's see, Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says
that "sod" as a noun and verb, short for "sodomite" and "sodomize," are
from the mid-19th century. Long after the Great Divide. "Sod all" and
"sod off" are 20th century.
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:00:07 +0100, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
Quote:
There's very little evidence of how anything at all was pronounced
before the early 20th century, when dictionaries started including
pronunciations.
Not so. We have an excellent idea, largely because of poetry or any
sort of rhyming verse of the time. Shakespeare gave us loads of clues
about the pronunciation of his day, for example. We even know how
people in Chaucer's day spoke.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline> wrote:
Quote:
As for dictionaries not showing pronunciation before the 20th century--and
ignoring the Century, which was published shortly before the turn of the
century--
Right, thanks, I misremembered the date, I thought it might be 1914.
Quote:
the 1828 dictionary by Noah Webster did indeed indicate
pronunciation. I have seen a facsimile edition, and Webster used diacritics
in the entry word to show its pronunciation. That is how I knew that Noah
Webster gave the entry "ant" (now spelled "ain't") the pronunciation /eInt/.
There must be some mistake. I own the facsimile edition, too, and there
are no pronunciations. A stress mark is put in the headword, that's all
I see. I'm looking at the entry for "ant" which is explained as "in our
vulgar dialect, as in the phrases, I ant, you ant, he ant, we ant, &c.,"
and which he thought were "doubtless legitimate remains of the Gothic
dialect' and there is no pronunciation given.
I wonder what it was you saw. The title page on mine says "Noah
Webster's First Edition of An American Dictionary of the English
Language. Republished in Fascimile Edition by Foundation for American
Chrisian Education..." The obverse says the original was 1828, and the
reprint was made in 1967 and 1980.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
"Charles Riggs" <CHANGE@aircom.net> wrote in message
news:emgnvvkcfgtqa92kgfp83jhb56jhuprdv9@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:00:07 +0100, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
There's very little evidence of how anything at all was pronounced
before the early 20th century, when dictionaries started including
pronunciations.
Not so. We have an excellent idea, largely because of poetry or any
sort of rhyming verse of the time. Shakespeare gave us loads of clues
about the pronunciation of his day, for example. We even know how
people in Chaucer's day spoke.
Good point. In addition: (1) There would be evidence based upon books
written to teach foreigners how to speak English. (2) There would be
passages written in pronunciation spelling by English writers who spoke one
dialect trying to represent the speech of those who spoke another dialect.
(3) Some English writers who took an interest in such things would have
mentioned in their writings how some words were pronounced in a way which
was at variance to what would be expected from their spelling.
Furthermore, I expect some evidence could be found among works discussing
the deaf and used to teach them, since one of the goals when teaching the
deaf was to teach them to pronounce English words.
Etymology: Middle English soudur, from Old French soudure, soldure,
from souder, soulder, to solder, from Latin solidre, to make solid,
from solidus, solid. See solid.
Was it ever pronounced "sodder" in BrE, or as "solder" in AmE?
In Scottish English, quite likely. Soldier is pronounced sodjer.
No, in Scots the "l" is usually pronounced. But in all parts of
Britain the kind of aristocratic old buffers who talk about "gels"
(girls) and "goff" (golf) tend to use the pronunciation "sodder",
which suggests it is an older form which got modernised to conform
with the (later) spelling.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Solder/Sodder
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1g76rri.wqousc4eqmjwN%trio@euronet.nl...
Quote:
"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline> wrote:
As for dictionaries not showing pronunciation before the 20th
century--and
ignoring the Century, which was published shortly before the turn of the
century--
Right, thanks, I misremembered the date, I thought it might be 1914.
the 1828 dictionary by Noah Webster did indeed indicate
pronunciation. I have seen a facsimile edition, and Webster used
diacritics
in the entry word to show its pronunciation. That is how I knew that
Noah
Webster gave the entry "ant" (now spelled "ain't") the pronunciation
/eInt/.
There must be some mistake. I own the facsimile edition, too, and there
are no pronunciations. A stress mark is put in the headword, that's all
I see. I'm looking at the entry for "ant" which is explained as "in our
vulgar dialect, as in the phrases, I ant, you ant, he ant, we ant, &c.,"
and which he thought were "doubtless legitimate remains of the Gothic
dialect' and there is no pronunciation given.
I wonder what it was you saw. The title page on mine says "Noah
Webster's First Edition of An American Dictionary of the English
Language. Republished in Fascimile Edition by Foundation for American
Chrisian Education..." The obverse says the original was 1828, and the
reprint was made in 1967 and 1980.
The copy I saw is in the reference section of the Wilson Library of the
University of Minnesota:
Author Webster, Noah, 1758-1843.
Title An American dictionary of the English language. With an introd. by
Mario Pei.
Published New York, Johnson Reprint Corp., 1970.
Description 2 v. port. 29 cm.
Availability TC Wilson Library Reference Quarto PE1625 .W3 1828ab
Non-Circulating
Other Series ( Belles lettres in English)
Note On spine: A facsim. of Noah Webster's original 1828 ed.
Original t.p. reads: An American dictionary of the English language:
intended to exhibit, I. The origin, affinities, and primary signification of
English words, as far as they have been ascertained. II. The genuine
orthography and pronunciation of words, according to general usage, or to
just principles of analogy. III. Accurate and discriminating definitions,
with numerous authorities and illustrations. To which are prefixed, an
introductory dissertation on the origin, history, and connection of the
languages of western Asia and of Europe, and a concise grammar of the
English language. By Noah Webster, LL.D. New York, S. Converse, 1828.
[end quote]
Why your edition does not indicate pronunciation and the edition at the U of
M does is a mystery.
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, because "soldering" is followed by